How do you negotiate with your other half?

Watch how couples negotiate so as to win a pair of tickets to London. It's kind of a cool concept, but not as easy as one would reckon.

Watch it!

Aunt Agony 120513

Originally posted by Jango:

This topic is about my feelings and thoughts on two person,X and Y.Let me bring you through.

I met this lady,X,during one of the events held in school.We started off quite formal and simple while working together.But as time passes by,the formality wore off and began to took and interest in her.She's cute,bubbly and most importantly,kind and caring.Although I can't say why she's more vulgar than me at times but there's a sense of innocence in her that lead me to admire her characteristics more.She's very thoughtful of other people and can be quite blur.

Then after that event,probably the whole school(through rumours) knew that X was currently dating someone else.I felt sad,but there's nothing to do...we can't force someone to like you,that's morally wrong.Being me,I've decided to move on from this spark and carry on with the daily live without spending much thought about her.There's probably some regret in me for not taking the first step,but ya,time wait's for no men.X to me back then,was just a friend.

Few months past and I'd developed a liking for Y,another lady who is much more independent,more stunning in looks(not the main point though),smart and many other good traits I can think of.This is someone that I'd yearned of in my life,the partner that I've always wanted.She knows that I'm somehow interested in her,though we are kind of like strangers.And the most shocking thing,X and Y are best friends.

I'd soon turned back to X(as a friend)  as she'd just broken up with her dating partner(don't think they got together but they broke off due to some reasons I'm unclear of).X then talk me through how she has been after the break up and I comforted her with my texts,caring for her like I always do for those friends close to me.(How people talked about her etc etc)We both shared a lot of stuff and I'd even told her about Y.

Then,she told me that Y has a liking for someone else...I'm a bit depressed but not so emotional to the point that I could cry as after all,Y is just another lady.My heart became dull.

Right now,I'm trying to figure out who do I like,X or Y.

X recently got angry with me because I might have been rude to her in messaging.(I do make mistakes)She ignored me for this few days...

But I feel that I want our friendship to be alive,instead of being enemies.Maybe it's due to the fact that I'm not used to us being not close together again...

I wanna get a partner,Y is the ideal one and X is someone that I've never expected...

Any advice to share?

I will appreciate and be thoughtful of all suggestions and criticisms given to me.

Thanks.:)




You know what you want for a partner - that's highly personalized and relative. Your ideal partner probably fits this picture in your quality world, but on the reverse, others may not have the same picture of you in their quality world. (Anyway, many people would appear to be ideal... until the day they somehow get together).

My sense is that the reason why you hold reservation towards pursing either one of these ladies is likely due to your fear of rejection. Somehow, it seemed to me that though you are 'picking the cherries' to decide who should you be with, but when your targets have shown interest elsewhere, you hastily back off and rationalize with yourself that this is 'morally wrong' - so let's move on.

Let me clarify something: the desire to move on isn't wrong; it is the logic behind the usage of these quotes, masked as reasons, that are fundamentally flawed.

There is nothing fundamentally or morally wrong with liking someone. In fact, it is almost an involuntary urge or response that one has little control over. Hence, when you claimed that you can't force anyone to like you - that's essentially correct. But it is puzzling on how you could claim this premise to be true for your situation when you haven't even started doing anything for her to even response to you in a manner where the statement is applicably true (e.g. like she has rejected you and shared that you and her are impossible).

It is akin to entering a restaurant and expressing that you are not dining here because it probably looks expensive. My point is that you haven't even ask/check about the price to make any informed decision. Hence, your behavior is probably a result of intra-personal issues that you have problems to deal with (e.g insecurity, fear of rejection, etc) and not likely because of the reasons you have stated in your post.

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I find your question puzzling: who should you choose: X or Y?

Unless you are saying that these two girls fancy you and you have a reasonable chance of entering into a relationship with either one of them - if not, I don't see why you are implicated with the 'burden' of choice.

What you are probably asking is who you should consider chasing. However, if this question even pops out the way it does (and would sound a little absurd) - then the likely answer is none.

I will give you an analogy: if I go to the market and buy a fish, I would choose based on its freshness and price. Then I will proceed to cook and eat it. There is no need for me to get feedback or response from the fish. There is no requirement to build rapport and develop relationship with it. It simply fulfill my survival need. I do not need to consider fulfilling the fish's needs as any attempt to fulfill the latter would automatically make me sound absolutely absurd. Likewise, love isn't going to a market place to buy fish, cook and eat it - you kind of need to get feedback, response, develop rapport and relationship and on later stage, fulfill certain mutual needs.

It is not a linear relationship.  

In addition, there are no immediate backup plans in genuine love. Such intricate systems to formulate backup plans are purely psychological mechanism to deal with our own deeper issues (fear of rejection, fear of loneliness, delusion, fantasy, etc).

Perhaps you are probably more in love with the notion of having a relationship, than being in love with the figure that you mentioned. You might want to figure out if this is something you want to resolve within.

Cheers

Aunt Agony II 100513 (Continued from AA 110413)

Originally posted by Wtongzl78:

I've had a talk with her early last week after her she came back from Phuket with him. I told her I have become uncomfortable that she has spent more and more time with him and that she has gone for more and more overseas trips with him. I also told her that people have started to talk.

But she became upset that I brought up this matter and insisted that there is nothing between her and him and that I should not interfere too much into her life and choice of her good friend and travel companion. She bacame angry and stormed off and refused to talk to me for the next few days. 

She resumed talking to me again last Thursday but i can sense that she is still not happy. But at least she has started talking to me again and i hope she got the message even though in the process i have upset her.

But tomorrow she's going overseas with him again. He will be on working trip to Hong Kong and she will just tag along as accomodation has been paid for by his company. They will be in Hong Kong till Sunday. This is not the first time she tag along with him for his working trips overseas. She has done so many times over the years and each trip they would extend the stay for 1-2 days more on top of the official days paid by his company. He  has also tagged along on her overseas working trips many times.

Maybe it's partly my fault to let her have so much freedom in the first place. She has have freedom even before we got married.  I was okay with it as I trusted her. 2 years ago she went backpack with him to Europe and US for 3 months,  I wasn't entirely happy but still could accept it.   Friends and relatives started to talk from then on but I just ignored. Perhsps she has taken things for granted and forgot about my feeling. 

She came back from Hong Kong last night and was in a very good mood. Bought me and the kids lots of stuff. I didn't want to tslk about this matter last night coz I don't want to spoil the occasion with argument. 




When we communicate in relationship, we often opt for the 'safer' systemic way of getting our message across in an indirect fashion. We expressed that 'people are talking about it' or that we are just 'uncomfortable'. But when we unmask the packaging, the truth of the matter is that you abhor the thought of how this situation has developed to such an uncontrolled manner.

Her right to travelling companions or good friends is something that you have no control over? Quite different from your original concept of you 'allowing' this to happen, isn't it? A more troubled thought might actually be the fact that you are also afraid of what is coming - when we fail to clear up dust in the room for too long a period, sometimes, we are also fearful of what we might actually find. Dead cockroach? Spider and its well-spun web? Or simply just dust needing to be cleaned?

If you are trying to find (or hopefully trying not to uncover) evidence of her possible infidelity, then naturally your sense would be to detect anomaly in her statement, choice and behavior. My guess is that you will eventually find something of varying degree if your focus is as such. Well, if I don't clear my room for too long, it is only natural to encounter at least a dust mite, if I decide to look deep enough.  

However, what you fear you might find or what you think you would find should not be the main considerations of what you ought to do. Namely, even if I may fear dead roaches lying somewhere in my cupboard, it shouldn't fetter me from spring cleaning because the fact of the matter is that if there is indeed a dead roach in my cupboard, nothing I can do now will change this very fact that the cockroach is dead right there.

I can only decide what I can do ONLY after I have decided upon my choice of spring cleaning. Who knows? Perhaps there are no dead roaches ultimately. Hence, what you gain is a peace of mind.

You made a good attempt at surfacing this issue to her; however, a bigger issue lies with (1) your insecurity & (2) the lack of power in the relationship. I hope you do realize that despite your attempt to start talking about this, she does not answer directly, but chose to exhibit a statement of power to coerce you into accepting her individuality.

[Quote: I should not interfere too much into her life and choice of her good friend and travel companion]

When I talk about insecurity, it does seem to me that you might have a coping mechanism through placating where you minimize or downplay your needs in view of harmony. Hence, the cosmic lesson for you in your marriage is to decide between avoiding (for social harmony) and confronting (for self expression). The latter probably put you in state of discomfort - you might want to find a way to communicate your needs and set a mutually agreed boundary.

Cheers

Aunt Agony 100513 (Continued from AA 160413)

Originally posted by soccer123

Yunhaier, thank you for your reply. Your reply is very insightful and thought-provoking.

It has been exactly one month since this mis-step happened. and one month later, i guess it is all over, hopefully.

1) Guilt

Yes, this past month had alot of happy moments with S, but there are also lots of guilt and heavy baggage that came with it. The state of having 2 girls at 1 time is very unbearable. On the one hand, the intense sense of guilt that keep oozing out from my heart. On the other, the constant worry that i / we would be found out, no matter wad we do, be it talking in office, walking on the streets, etc. THis feeling is unsustainable and at times, driving me crazy. recently, i am watching a taiwanese drama about marriage and 3rd parties. can totally relate to the feelings portrayed in the drama. Even the progression phases are the same. From sweet innocent Ai4 mei4, to managing both parties, to unbearable feelings to breakdowns. Its as though i am living the drama.

2) 'Twisted courage to get out of her relationship'

U are right, but not totally on this. It is very true that S is unhappy in this relationship w her bf. But she kept emphasising that there is no turning back for her. The passion or liking she has for me might or might not give her a fleeting moment of courage to leave her bf. But 2 things held true, and probably still will: if she will indeed leave, it will not b me as the reason (at the very least, i cannot be directly involved); and she knew she cannot do this.

3) about her impending marriage as an output.. 

Again, i feel u r right. But i can only hope that she and her bf will end up better in time to come. she said to me before, she will be happy. she can make things better and things will be back to normal and she can focus on her bf. Will that make her happy? It's no longer about me anymore.

4) about my gf.

I am very relieved that there are still alot of spark between us. at least over long distance calls and video chats. Some recent events woke me up and i realised that its my gf whom i really want to be with. i took more initiative to video call her, to tell her how much i miss her (i really do, even more so after these events), even if once in a while i may have a split thought on whether i miss my gf so much is because i feel lonely that S is 'gone' or not. I would like to think its not, it's more of i really want to cherish my gf. A fundamental question, will think about this when things are more cooled down.

5) Some recent event..

Some recent event changed the entire face of this relationship between S and me. i would prefer not to go into details, but in summary, it went smth like this:

S's bf got very suspicious about S and me and he did some drastic measures. S and me got very worried at certain points, worried that her bf might jeopardise everything and tell whatever he knew / thought to everyone. It is a truth that S and me have betrayed our respective partners emotionally and physically. But it is really not true that we will snatch each other away from our partners. We both agree that we cannot be each other's reason for leaving our partners should the day comes. and S also said she will see through her marriage. So if her bf manages to find something, he would find the truth (about the liking part) and might link it to thinking that i am around to snatch S away from him. (which is not true). But come to think of it, wadever its true or not, doesn't matter anymore. I have sinned, and that's a fact.

So we got very worried, and in particular, me. Because i did not want to jeopardise everything and hearing S's bf's threats, about wanting to go to my gf, family and friends and tell her about me, made me very uneasy. Maybe its my cowardice, or maybe its the moment that made me think why i was in such a situation. I had to protect the people around me and not let them come to hurt. (maybe some of u may feel instead that i am protecting myself, but i really did not want anybody to be hurt, including S and her bf).

So i decided, and made up my choice. 

S was very, very disappointed and upset and she has since returned to her bf, even though her bf did something very very drastic which disgusted her and she said she would give him one last chance. S is avoiding me now.

THis is what had panned out. One of my friend told me that it is considered a better ending already. still, a tinge of sadness remains, seeing how S got so upset and resigned herself to the decision she made before. i still have feelings for S, but i know i cannot have hers. If i have both, my sufferings will only be more and prolonged. But for S, i don't know when i will be able to get over her.







In love, there are two classic dimensions which are often in state of conflicts or confusion: one ruled by reasons and the other governed by emotions. Hence, it is rather a common pattern for one to 'say one thing and feel another'. I will quote your own personal experience: similarly, you have decided to do what is the 'best' for your situation - essentially the lesser of the two evils - but that does not mean that you remain unscathed from the choice you made.

Why would I say this?

If reason had the stronger hold on her, then it makes no sense for her to feel 'disappointed or upset' - since this choice is rationally efficient (having her needs fulfilled before she pays the full cost of infidelity) and it is supposedly the outcome that both of you have expected and anticipated. Obviously, the presence of disappointment would naturally mean that there must be an unspoken expectation on her part, likely to be hidden deeper in her psyche, away from prying eyes.

Hence, I would still maintain the point that she is waiting for 'someone' to rescue her from the pits of hell.

Her unfortunate revelation is that eventually she figured that you are not the armored knight she is hoping you would evolve to be - descending into the pits to face the demons. Facing the morality of your own fears and actions, she has nothing other than full acceptance in the brute reality of your incontestable choice: simply described as insufficient amount of love for you to do anything beyond this point for the relationship.

There is nothing to be ignominious about; it's just a matter of the kind of cosmic lessons desired to be taught by love through the presence of this circumstances. You figured out what you want to do and how this episode has revealed about your relationship with yourself and your gf. Great.

In time to come, she would also figure out something critical, relative to her experience.

The last chance she is giving him appears more like a last chance she is giving herself. The point is that without catalysis, the likelihood of her bf remaining the way he is stands high. Hence, whatever feeble chance she has decided to give without communication and negotiation of needs will likely to fail.

But that's not for you to manage.

Unless you have decided to unsheathe your sword and plunge into hell gloriously.

And that's probably another topic for another day.

Cheers

Skeletons discovered holding hands in coffin together

You can read the actual article here

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Archaeologists excavating the inner courtyard of a former Dominican monastery may have discovered a Romanian Romeo and Juliet after unearthing the bodies of a young couple who were buried holding hands.
Experts from the Cluj-Napoca Institute of Archaeology and History of Art are working on what they believe is the former cemetery of the monastery have already uncovered several bodies

But discovering the couple holding hands was a surprise as double burials were extremely rare in that period.


Main researcher Adrian Rusu said: 'It is a mystery - and rare for such burials at that time.


We can see that the man had suffered a severe injury that left him with a broken hip from which he probably died. We believe the injury was caused after he was hit by something very blunt and hard.'

Because of the fact that the young woman obviously died at the same time and was presumably healthy we are speculating that she possibly died of a broken heart at the loss of her partner.

Mr Rusu explained that becuase suicide was regarded as a sin in the Medieval Ages it is unlikely she killed herself - and if she had they would not have been buried together like the were in a holy place.

'They were obviously buried together as a tribute to the love they had for each other,' he said.
He estimated that the two bodies were buried somewhere between 1450-1550.

The body of a child was also found in the grave in Cluj-Napoca although this may not have been linked to the pair.

The lower leg bones of a fourth skeleton were also found in the burial plot.

Cheers